"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

Këtu mund të flisni mbi historinë tonë duke sjellë fakte historike për ndriçimin e asaj pjese të historisë mbi të cilen ka rënë harresa e kohës dhe e njerëzve.

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#451

Post by Arbëri » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:37 pm

Edhe kete foto po e vendos ketu nga STOBI

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Stobi - ancient family portrait
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=st ... 40&bih=791
“Nëse doni të zbuloni historinë para Krishtit dhe
shkencat e asaj kohe, duhet të studioni gjuhën shqipe !"
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Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz - albanolog, matematicient, filozof gjerman

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#452

Post by Picasso` » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:18 pm

ALBPelasgian wrote:Simboli i dhise ne nje mozaik te germadhave te qytetit te fisme maqedonas - Heracles Lyncestis:

Image

Do ta pyesja ne kete rast, Picasso-n, sa eshte larg ky qytet i lashte prej Manastirit?

Do te me pelqente pamase qe ta vizitoja ate!
Jo jo, Alb, nuk eshte larg qytetit te Manastirit. Ne qoft se e kemi rastin qe te takohemi ne Manastir, dhe tte keshe mundesi qe te vish, ateher patjeter e vizitojme. Atje kam punuar-germuar une. :)

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#453

Post by Socio » Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:46 pm

One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#454

Post by Trojan » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:05 pm

Socio wrote:Image

ILIRE ...


Image

MAQEDONE ...

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/s ... entPage=14

Tek figura e pare ... eshte nje luftim mes nje Iliri dhe nje Maqedonasi... keshtu qe mburoja e te djathtit me 5 rrathe eshte maqedonase sic eshte edhe ajo qe ke vene me poshte.

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#455

Post by Socio » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:29 pm

Trojan wrote:Tek figura e pare ... eshte nje luftim mes nje Iliri dhe nje Maqedonasi... keshtu qe mburoja e te djathtit me 5 rrathe eshte maqedonase sic eshte edhe ajo qe ke vene me poshte.
Faleminderit, megjithate ...

Ku e bazon pohimin me larte ?!

Pse nuk mund te jete luftim mes Ilireve (shiko perkrenaret Ilire te njejta)?!

Edhe nje pyetje tjeter:

Po te ishte edhe nje luftetar i trete aty (ne artefakt) dhe te mbante te njejten mburoje por kesaj rradhe me 6 rrathe, si do ta quaje ate luftetar ?!



Image

Photo: Coin of the Illyrian King, Ballaios 190-175 BC
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#456

Post by Zeus10 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:32 am

Trojan wrote:
Socio wrote:Image

ILIRE ...


Image

MAQEDONE ...

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/s ... entPage=14

Tek figura e pare ... eshte nje luftim mes nje Iliri dhe nje Maqedonasi... keshtu qe mburoja e te djathtit me 5 rrathe eshte maqedonase sic eshte edhe ajo qe ke vene me poshte.
Nuk eshte e vertete, artifakti eshte gjetur ne Gradishte(Fier) dhe shoqerohet nga pershkrimi:

The Illyrian plate from Gradiste, dating from the 5th or 4th century, shows such shields being used by warriors both on foot and horseback

(Fig. 2).
Pra aty paraqiten vetem dy luftetare Ilire dhe nje armik i vdekur. Por meqe ti do nje mburoje ilire, ja ku e ke fotografine e nje mburoje ilire(ne muzeumin Tirane), me te njejtat simbole si ajo maqedonase. Bile te njejtat simbole gjenden dhe tek etrusket:
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#457

Post by Trojan » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:17 am

Image

Image

E gjeta me ne fund se me ke djell ngjante...

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#458

Post by Trojan » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:05 am

Zeus10 wrote:
Trojan wrote:
Socio wrote:Image

ILIRE ...


Image

MAQEDONE ...

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/s ... entPage=14

Tek figura e pare ... eshte nje luftim mes nje Iliri dhe nje Maqedonasi... keshtu qe mburoja e te djathtit me 5 rrathe eshte maqedonase sic eshte edhe ajo qe ke vene me poshte.
Nuk eshte e vertete, artifakti eshte gjetur ne Gradishte(Fier) dhe shoqerohet nga pershkrimi:

The Illyrian plate from Gradiste, dating from the 5th or 4th century, shows such shields being used by warriors both on foot and horseback

(Fig. 2).
Pra aty paraqiten vetem dy luftetare Ilire dhe nje armik i vdekur. Por meqe ti do nje mburoje ilire, ja ku e ke fotografine e nje mburoje ilire(ne muzeumin Tirane), me te njejtat simbole si ajo maqedonase. Bile te njejtat simbole gjenden dhe tek etrusket:
Une keshtu kisha lexuar per kete pllaken.. sepse nga disa eshte konsideruar si Maqedonas ai djathtas!!!!!!!

mbase ekam edhe gabim...

gjithsesi armatimi si prsh mburoja dhe perkrenarja jane te njejta ne Iliri dhe Maqedoni...
kohet e fundit ishte gjetur edhe nje perkrenare e tipit Ilir ne Maqedonine Greke (Pella). e cila i shte e veshur me fleta ari,sic duket i takonte
nje "arhondi" maqedonas...

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#459

Post by Zeus10 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:03 pm

gjithsesi armatimi si prsh mburoja dhe perkrenarja jane te njejta ne Iliri dhe Maqedoni...
Dhe jo vetem, por dhe ajo etruske dhe epirote. Kjo do te thote shume, popuj me emra te ndryshem qe i dekorojne paisjet e tyre ne menyre identike, do te thote qe kemi ndarje sunduesish dhe jo etnish.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#460

Post by Socio » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:56 pm

'P E L A G I T A N'
Image

Photo: 325BC-310BC coin from the Illyrian city of Pelagia



British Museum, London - http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/s ... rentPage=1


Image


Image
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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#461

Post by Trojan » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:04 pm

Image

KINGS of MACEDON. Pyrrhos (of Epiros). 287-285 BC and 274-273 BC. Æ Unit (17mm, 4.02 g, 3h). Uncertain Macedonian mint. Macedonian shield with monogram of Pyrrhos in central boss / Macedonian helmet; monogram below; all within oak wreath. SNG Alpha Bank 971 var. (control). VF.


mund te japi ndonjeri ndonje mendim se c'shkruhet ne pjesen e mbrapme te monedhes!!!!!!!!

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#462

Post by ALBPelasgian » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:23 pm

S'di ne cilin buletin lajmesh arkeologjike pata lexuar se ne Trebenishte jane gjetur relieve me motive lufte midis ilireve dhe maqedoneve, e ku mburojat e seciles pale jane te njejta, gjegjesisht me te njejat ornamente zbukuruese...
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#463

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:22 pm

Per Zeus dhe Trojan:

Lenda antike qe defton per ndasite "etnike"(ne kuptimin e atehershem, kuptohet) te maqedoneve dhe 'heleneve' ne anen tjeter, eshte e shumte dhe e lloj-llojshme. Nje prej provave te tilla gjendet tek Ariani:
But the Grecian mercenaries serving under Darius attacked the Macedonians at the point where they saw their phalanx especially disordered. For the Macedonian phalanx had been broken and had disjoined towards the right wing, because Alexander had dashed into the river with eagerness , and engaging in a hand-to-hand conflict was already driving back the Persians posted there; but the Macedonians in the centre had not prosecuted their task with equal eagerness; and finding many parts of the bank steep and precipitous, they were unable to preserve the front of the phalanx in the same line. Here then the struggle was desperate; the Grecian mercenaries of Darius fighting in order to push the Macedonians back into the river, and regain the victory for their allies who were already flying; the Macedonians struggling in order not to fall short of Alexander's success, which was already manifest, and not to tarnish the glory of the phalanx, which up to that time had been commonly pro claimed invincible. Moreover the feeling of rivalry which existed between the Grecian and Macedonian races inspired each side in the conflict. Here fell Ptolemy, son of Seleucus, after proving himself a valiant man, besides about 120 other Macedonians of no mean repute.
Perkthime tjera te versionit te njejte:
Darius’ Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander’s triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian. [
Tashti e zene me shpatulla per muri, propaganda bizantine ne internet deshperueshem perpiqet qe ketij pasusi t'i nderroje komplet kuptimin. Pos te tjerash ja "argumentimi" i tyre:

Image

«καὶ τι καὶ τοῖς γένεσι τῷ τε Ἑλληνικῷ καὶ τῷ Μακεδονικῷ φιλοτιμίας ἐνέπεσεν ἐς άλλήλους»
Versioni bizantin: Note that the greek text has the word γένος [genos] (in the dative plural γένεσι [genesi]) and the english translation has "race" , as it has φιλοτιμία [philotimia] , where the english translation has "feeling of rivalry"

Now noting that genos , Hellenikon , Makedonikon are all in dative , the translation should be:

"... and of the philotimia being a motivation for the Hellenic and Macedonian gene."

Now what is the exact meaning of "genos" and "philotimia" and what does this phrase really means when it is linked with the whole scenery that it describes ?

Knowing that Arrian wrote his Anabasis in the advanced Hellenistic period , we can be perfectly sure that "genos" here carries its late classical/post-classical meaning which is void of ethnic significance and has the general meaning of "group"/"set" , as JM Hall , an expert on matters of ancient greek ethnicity , denotes in page 214 of his book "Hellenicity" :
Image

As you can see , from the late classical period (Plato) and onwards we find terms like "the genos of the philosophers" , "the genos of the farmers", "the genos of the guardians" and "the genos of the fishmongers" !!!

Lets move to the other term : philotimia. Its meaning in Greek is transparent : φιλώ [philo , "to love"] and τιμή [time , "honor"] makes philotimia = "love for honor"/"will to gain honor". So it is not the competition itself , but the virtue of motivation that makes a competition intense , a greek virtue that Nietsche locates in the well known homeric verse of [Iliad , XI.784] :
Quote:
«αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν καὶ ὑπείροχον ἔμμεναι ἄλλων»

"be always perfect and exceed the others"
This is the meaning of "philotimia" ("love for honor/love for excellence") and it must be viewed as a motivating cause for competition not as competition and rivalry.

Now , after that lets return to Arrian. Elsewhere in the same paragraph the english translation has no problem on rendering Arrian's "Greeks" as "the Greek mercenaries of Darius" - if you compare the greek and english versions you'll see that the greek version does not use the word "Greek mercenaries"/Ἔλληνες μισθοφόροι twice , but just once at the beginning , and later for semplicity (an element that must always be considered in the interpretation of the densely-writing ancient greek authors) the distinction between "Alexander's Army" and "Darius' Greek mercenaries" is written as "Macedonians vs Greeks".

So what is the most suitable translation for the whole problematic phrase ???

Quote:
«καὶ τι καὶ τοῖς γένεσι τῷ τε Ἑλληνικῷ καὶ τῷ Μακεδονικῷ φιλοτιμίας ἐνέπεσεν ἐς άλλήλους»
We have two sets/groups (genos) of rival soldiers in this particular battle moment : Alexander's Army ("Macedonians") and Darius' Greek mercenaries ("Greeks") and they have fought intensively due to their common sense of philotimia ("love for honor gained after exceeding in competition").

At least to me it is obvious that the translation should be:

"... and the sense of philotimia acting as motivation for both groups : Alexander's Macedonians and Darius' Greek mercenaries."

There is not even a single drop of indication for a generalized "sense of rivalry" between "the Greek and the Macedonian Races" and we have every right on considering this 1893 english translation as obsolete !!
Ja dhe nje "perpjekje" tjeter ne emer te "korigjimit":
“kai tois genesi tw te Ellhnikw kai Makedonikw filotimias enepesen es allhlous”

but what is its translation???

kai = and
tois = the
genesi = beginning, origin, descent, clan/tribe, race, kind
tw = of
te = the
Ellhnikwn = Hellinic
Makedonikwn = Makedonian
filotimias = literally “love of honour”, but can also mean ‘ambition’ among other things..
enepesen = to fall
es = on
allhlous = eachother

So in short.. during the battle and while the Makedones were trying to equal Alexander’s accomplishemnts and not stain the honor of the phallanx, which was ‘unbeatable’… the ‘love for honor’/ambition drove the two tribes/clans upon eachother..

While the word ‘genesi’ may also mean ‘race’, Arrian (and NOT Diodorus) leaves us no reason to question the meaning, since he has already indicates that he’s using it with the meaning of ‘clan/tribe’ just a couple of lines down..

Zeus, Trojan (dhe kushdo tjeter qe e njeh greqishtene vjeter) do e pyesja: ky shpjegimi i propagandisteve bizantin a qellon ne shenje? A eshte perkthimi i drejte (nga europianet) i llogarise se Arrianit apo verejtja e bizantineve ne kete rast eshte e drejte?

Prej tekstit origjinal:

καὶ τι καὶ τοῖς γένεσι τῷ τε Ἑλληνικῷ καὶ τῷ Μακεδονικῷ φιλοτιμίας ἐνέπεσεν ἐς άλλήλους

a indikohet kuptimisht: urrejta [rivaliteti] racial midis Heleneve dhe Maqedoneve?

Ju falemnderit!
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#464

Post by Zeus10 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:41 pm

καὶ ----- dhe, qe
τοῖς ----nyje shquese(per shumesin dhanore)
γένεσι ----gjini, gjeneze, race(shumes)
τῷ -----"e"(nuk egziston ne shqip) (nyje dhanore)
τε ---dhe
Ἑλληνικῷ --helenike
καὶ ---dhe
τῷ --nyje dhanore
Μακεδονικῷ -maqedonase
φιλοτιμίας --- ambicje (karshi dickaje tjeter)
ἐνέπεσεν-- me rene
ἐς ---ne
ἀλλήλους----njeri-tjetrit


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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#465

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:02 pm

Qe do te thote se perkthimi anglez i tekstit 'greqisht' te Arrianit eshte korrekt, apo jo?

"Ambicia e vjeter raciale qe ekzistonte midis Heleneve dhe Maqedoneve"
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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