"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460
Nësë unë e kam kuptuar drejt, 四 në shqip më kujton fjalën KANAT!
Gjithashtu dhe shkronja "A" duket se qënka:
[quoteem]Il fondamentale strumento di misurazione di un lavoratore della pietra è il compasso. Gli scultori non sempre erano in grado di leggere i numeri, così lavoravano spesso su un'unica misura predisposta per loro; tutte le altre misure derivavano da quella lunghezza di base.
Per derivare una dimensione era necessario sapere quale frazione o multiplo fosse rispetto all'unità originale, usando il compasso pel scoprire e fissare la dimensione desiderata.[/quoteem]
-Tjetër gjë që më vjen në mendje është lidhja midis : eye [ai] dhe sinus.
Orakulli wrote:Sa kane ndikuar Turqit tek Shqiptaret?
Vetem mjafton me lexue librat e historianeve turq qe citojne burimet e shkruajtura. Ne to rapartohet qe Veriu i banuar nga geget ka qene plotesisht jashte kontrollit te tyre per gjate gjithe kohes se pushtimit, ndersa jugu pjeserisht, vetem pjesa fushore pranoi ne njifare mase dhe pati ndikim nga ky pushtim.
Nga na tjeter, pjesmmarja e tyre e madhe ne pushtetin ushtarak, art, politike dhe numri shume i madh i kryeminstrave me origjine shqiptare ne shtetin perandorak Turk, te jep ndjesine qe duket sikur turqit erdhen ne ballkan per tu perdorur nga Shqiptaret per te krijurar nji perandori te re te tyre, pas saj romake dhe bizantine
fatkeqsisht kane ndikuar shume, me shume seç neve na pelqen te mendojme. E vertet qe geget jane ata qe u ruajten me shume nga influenca osmane, po shoqeria moderne shqiptare esht THEMELUAR mbi baza qyteterimi orientale. Ky esht fakt i hishur qe ne duhet te pranojne neqofse duam te bejme diçka per ta ndrequr, e dini nga se kuptohet? nga humnera qe ndan shqiptaret e sotme nga ata skenderbejane preosmane. Ne nga ata jemi kaq te ndryshem ne kulture, vlera, fe, etni madje dhe emer, saqe te gjitha problemet shoqerore qe shqiptaret kane sot rrjedhin pa asnje dyshim nga kjo, nga shkeputja shpirterore me shqiptaret e rilindjes. Ne kemi humbur bussullen, kemi humbur identitetin tone kombetare dhe etnik ne vazhdimsin historike me shqiptaret qe na formuan kombin, ky esht dhe do te jete gjithmone problemi yne kombetare, gjeri sa te arrim ta kuptojme. Shpresoj vetem qe mos te jete shume vone.
Esht e kote qe vazhdon te perserisesh kete teze. Nuk ka asnje prove per shqiptare para periudhes migratore skenderbejane,as gjuhesore as arkeologjike as folklorike. Greqishtja u zhduk sepse u svendesua teresisht nga latinishtja,e cila u ndikua tmerresisht nga kjo ne leksik. Nuk ka per te çuar ne asnje vend mohimi i realiteteve historike i te tjereve. Te analizo dhe studiojm faktet qe i perkasin popullit tone.
Se ku u gjeten aq shume Shqiptare te arsimuar te drejton per shekuj me radhe pjese te rendesishme te perandorise Turke,te rigrininn Egjyptin,etj, dhe te ishin aq shume te mireorganizuar per nivelin e saj kohe, nji Zot e di. Eshte gjitashtu e pashpjegueshme edhe faktet e meparshme te pjesmarrjes se larte te shqiptareve ne drejtimin e perandorise Romake.
Nuk te duket sikur vinin nga nivel i larte kulture dhe organizmi , hyllin, por qe Historia zyrtare e shkruajtur ne pjesen me te madhe nen grykesine e miqve te medhenj moderne te fqinjeve tane te vegjel, nuk do qe tjua njohi te verteten.
Historia nuk eshte shkruajtur kurre nga popujt.
Shqiptaret nuk ishin popull injorant, kishin zgjuarsine dhe forcen e tyre qe i ka karakterizuar ne shekuj. Natyrisht qe duke u vene ne nje posicion komandoje shfaqen cilesite e tyre me te mira. Shkollimi shqiptare ne kohen romake behej ne oborret romake, ne kohen osmane realizoj ne oborret osmane dhe ishte i nje niveli mjaft te larte, edhe nga pikpamja ushtarake. Ngjashme me çfare ndodhi me Skenderbeun.
Hyllin, kam pershtypjen se ty nuk bejne shume pershtypje faktet dhe analizat e tyre , por per te pelqen ti shikon Shqiptaret nen syrin e propagandes historike dhe Gjuhesore reth kultures se shqiptareve , e cila ka pas dhe ka qellim te vetem justifikimin te rrembimit te tokave tona ne kohet moderne.
Te ty duket qarte kenaqesia kur perforcon pergjithesimet antishqiptare te ngritura reth 100 vjete me pare.
Hyllin, para 100-200 vjetesh ishin shume Shqiptare qe permbysen boten e vjeter dhe kuptohet bene shume shtete armiq te betuar te tyre, dhe te njeten gje po bejne ne ditet e sotme. Shqiptaret e kane ne gen kete dhunti.Ata po permbysin perseri. Por, sapo ka filluar.Eshte fillimi i saj qe vetem ata jane te afte te ndryshojne. E ndryshuan dhe po e ndryshojne rajonin, fillimisht.
Mua me bejne shume pershtypje faktet Orakull, çdo gje qe nuk esht e provuar esht vetem spekullim qe duhet marre si i tille. Mos ngaterro propaganden denigruese me historine zyrtare. Qe roli shqiptare ne histori esht neglizhuar o fshire esht realitet, po realitet esht edhe roli i kombeve te tjere. Mos moho te tjeret per te ngrutur veten, ktu e kam fjalen.
Mallakastrioti wrote:Foto e pare, "Valle dei Templi"-Agrigento. Stili i ndertimit eshte ai Dorik. ne se Doret ishin "grek" atehere pa tjeter do kene qene njerez te larte, vigan, bjond dhe me sy te kalter----por kam pershtypjen qe Doret nuk i perkasin ndonje rrace te keshtuquajtur greke.
, teori interesante Mallakastriot, po pse duet te jesh patjeter i gjate dhe bjond per te ngritur tempuj te medhenj? Popujt Quechua te amerikes se jugut ishin te shemtuar si majmun dhe ngriten priamida dhe formuluan teori matematikore maramendese. Pastaj greket e lashtesise patjeter qe kishin qene me trajta kaukazike, ashtu si latinet, po kultura e tyre universaliste dhe kontaktet e shpeshte me popujt nga me te ndryshmit sollen ne "erresimin" e trajtave te tyre etnike .Xoutos(dmth bjonde) ishte vellai i Doros, paraardhesi i Ioneve. Ne Iliaden dhe Odisen shume personazhe jane bjonde(xanthos o chrysokarenos,Akili,Menelao, Briseides,Elena, Penelopa etj), greket madje perdornin fjalen iris-ylber per te thene "pupila e syrit", dmth jo e zeze, me "ngjyra te ylberit". Statujat, qe ne lashtesi pikturoeshin shpesh kishin syte te kalter, si p.sh. Athena quhej edhe glaukopis (syte e qyqes, te shndritshem, dmth te kthjellet), Apollo esht phoibos-driteplot, Era leukolenos-me "krah te bardha",Afrodita dhe Demetra jane xanthà, etj. Ka madje teori "eretike" qe e lidhin renien e ketyre civilizimeve me shberjen etnike te ketyre popujve.
Mallakastrioti wrote:Si mund ta zberthejme si Toponim "Agrigento", Hylliarbenor? Cilet ishin keta "Njerez te Eger" apo te ashper qe ndertuan keta tempuj me forma me te vertet kolosale?
Greket e quajten Akragas, mbase nga akros-mal, ose nga lumi qe lan truallin me te njejtin emer, me shume info mbi kete nuk di. Nuk besoj se ishin e njejta tribù qe gjeten romaket e qe i quajten Graeci. Greket qe themeluan qytetet polis ne Italin e jugut ishin me shume gjase aristokrat te debuar per motive politike, dmth njerez te kulturuar. Kjo mund te jete edhe arsyja e nje lulezimi kulturore kaq te madh.
E di si ben ti ylli sikur ke jetuar me ata greket dhe romaket ne te njejten lagje, dhe vjen e na thua ne te gjitha keto informacione qe i lexove 5 min me perpara ne internet.
Personalisht Hyllin e kam vizituar Siciline dhe Agrigento dhe kam njohuri lidhur stilit te ndertimit te Tempujve. Ka qene mrbeslenes Guida apo Ciceroni (ish Profesor i Historise se Lashte ne pension) kur i bera pyetjen: Cilet ishin Doret dhe nga kane prejardhjen?
Pergjigja me ngeli ne mendje, pasi eshte diçka qe ka nje te vertet te madhe:
"Doret fillimisht zbriten nga Epiri ne Greqi dhe me vone dynden keto zona, por Doret nuk jane greket e mitollogjise qe sot u mesojme neper shkolla nxenesve. Ishin nje rrace shtatmadhe dhe sigurisht lekurebardhe, kundrejt Joneve ezmere dhe te shkurter. Keto Tempuj te larte dhe gjigande jane bere prej njerez jo mesdhetare"---fjalet e Profesorit keto edhe pse lidhur pyetjes vendi origjinal i lindjes apo nga vinin Doret origjinalisht nuk mu pergjigj, pasi shkurtimisht me la te kuptoje qe ishin njerez te ardhur ne Ballkan fillimisht e me vone u zhvendosen edhe ne te keshtuquajtur "Magna Grecia".
Po te merremi me mitin, ku lind ngaterresa nuk na çon ne asnje vend te themi saktesisht cilet ishin apo ishte populli i lashte qe banonte Gadishullin Ilirik (nuk po e quaj ballkanik, pasi fjale turke dhe une kerkoj ti evitoj "turqizmat") dhe po te kerkojme faktet shkencore, "greket e lashte"-Hyllinet apo doret na dalin rrace jo Mesdhetare.
Ku qendron e verteta atehere sipas mendimit tend HylliArbenor?
Mallakastrioti wrote:Si mund ta zberthejme si Toponim "Agrigento", Hylliarbenor? Cilet ishin keta "Njerez te Eger" apo te ashper qe ndertuan keta tempuj me forma me te vertet kolosale?
Greket e quajten Akragas, mbase nga akros-mal, ose nga lumi qe lan truallin me te njejtin emer, me shume info mbi kete nuk di. Nuk besoj se ishin e njejta tribù qe gjeten romaket e qe i quajten Graeci. Greket qe themeluan qytetet polis ne Italin e jugut ishin me shume gjase aristokrat te debuar per motive politike, dmth njerez te kulturuar. Kjo mund te jete edhe arsyja e nje lulezimi kulturore kaq te madh.
Fjala "mbase" apo "ndoshta" nuk pranohet si fakt shkencor lidhur bindjeve qe ti shpalos me zell per kete pjese te Italise se Jugut dhe pikerisht te keshtuquajtur "Magna Grecia", pasi si fjale (ndoshta dhe mbase) ngelen ne termin HIPOTEZE----qe keta popuj dhane emrat vendbanimeve ndoshta nga nje mal (qe aty nuk gjendet, pasi eshte zone kodrinore dhe fushore) si dhe nuk ka ne te keshtuquajtur greqishte te lashte ndonje fjale qe te mund te na vertetoje hipotezen tende qe te kete ndonje lum te rendesishem aty prane me kete hidronom, pra Akragas----duhet pasur kujdes edhe lidhur hipotezave, pasi shume here pergenjeshtrojne vetveten!
HylliArbenor wrote:
Un jam rritur ne Itali dhe e kam bredhur vendin nga Valle d’Aosta gjeri ne Sicili, kam vizituar site arkeologjike dhe muse te Magna Grecia-s sa me kane dale nga hundet, dhe prodhimin material kulturore e kam konstatuar nga afer (ashtu si mijra njerez ne Itali dhe gjithe boten). Ne universitet kam dhene provim “Archeologia della Magna Grecia” i cili merrej perpikmerisht me zbulimet arkeologjike, historine dhe pershkrimin e artit dhe teknologjise se koloneve greke ne Sicili dhe jug te Italise. Burimet qe flasin per Magna Grecian jane te panumerta nga Tucidi, Straboni, Polibi, Platoni(qe vajti personalisht dek tiranni Dionigi), Eusebi, Gerolami etj etj, te cilet pershkruajne me hollesi edhe ngjarjet historike te atyre trojeve. E ti vjen e thua “kultura e Magna Grecies esht teresisht e panjohur”, e panjohur nga kush?? Nga ty mbase.
Pohimi im, si me kolonit greke te jugut ashtu si me keltet e Italise se veriut, ishte çfare kulture u be dominuese dhe baze per zhvillimin kombetare dhe qytetare te atyre zonave. Qe ka pasur popuj te tjere ka pasur, asnjeri nuk po e mohon, po nuk esht se te gjithe popujt lane gjurmen e tyre ne shoqeri ne te njejtin grade, ca u zhduken, ca lane disa aspekte kulturore, per disa dyshoet edhe vet ekzistenca e tyre.
O Ylli, me degjo cik me kujdes, nje keshille qe po deshe mos e rruaj fare djale, por do te te beje mire ne jete nese ma degjon, flake tej narcizizmin lol.....nese do ta dish mire, nuk i intereson askujt ketu se ku je rritur ti apo c'ke vizituar, besoj duhet ta kesh kuptuar qe te gjithe ne qe marrim pjese ne kte teme jemi ne perendim per nje kohe te gjate, qe nga vitet 90, dhe kemi pare shume gjera, kapish? te gjitha ato qe ke pare ti psh nuk na intereson fare cfar provimesh ke dhene ti plako, ajo qe na intereson ne jane argumentat, te cilat ti nuk i jep.
mos harro nje gje tjeter thelbesore, te gjithe ne ketu dime historiografine konvencionale, dmth keto brockullat me magna graecia te polibos etj, ne shkruajme ketu per te hedhur poshte abuzimet historike, sidomos tek termat dhe tek konceptet qe perdoren.
psh te te them une ty, tek banoret e tarantos nuk ekzistonte nocioni i kombesise por i tribuse, e kupton kete??? ska si te jene greke keta, graeci ishin nje tribu e vogel tjeter debilash ne te njeten kohe ne veri te atikes.
kur u formua kombi grek, pse u formua dhe nga kush u formua, cilat raca e formuan( ndihmuam dhe ne allvanoset shume, pervec aziatikeve dhe mongoleve turq) ketu ne kete forum ke material sa te duash, te jesh grek s'duhet as gjaku as genet dhe as gjuha, mjafton fucking orthodox religion.
Ps. po dyshoj qe ti nuk njeh as historine konvencionale mire, te pakten duhet ta kishe ditur qe keltet nuk kane ndonje rol te madh ne qyteterimet ne gadishullin italik, etrusket jane culla di civilta atje.
hajd tung
"They are Nietzsche's over-men, these primitive Albanians — something between kings and tigers."
- Henry Noel Brailsford
land wrote:O Ylli, me degjo cik me kujdes, nje keshille qe po deshe mos e rruaj fare djale, por do te te beje mire ne jete nese ma degjon, flake tej narcizizmin lol.....nese do ta dish mire, nuk i intereson askujt ketu se ku je rritur ti apo c'ke vizituar, besoj duhet ta kesh kuptuar qe te gjithe ne qe marrim pjese ne kte teme jemi ne perendim per nje kohe te gjate, qe nga vitet 90, dhe kemi pare shume gjera, kapish? te gjitha ato qe ke pare ti psh nuk na intereson fare cfar provimesh ke dhene ti plako, ajo qe na intereson ne jane argumentat, te cilat ti nuk i jep.
mos harro nje gje tjeter thelbesore, te gjithe ne ketu dime historiografine konvencionale, dmth keto brockullat me magna graecia te polibos etj, ne shkruajme ketu per te hedhur poshte abuzimet historike, sidomos tek termat dhe tek konceptet qe perdoren.
psh te te them une ty, tek banoret e tarantos nuk ekzistonte nocioni i kombesise por i tribuse, e kupton kete??? ska si te jene greke keta, graeci ishin nje tribu e vogel tjeter debilash ne te njeten kohe ne veri te atikes.
kur u formua kombi grek, pse u formua dhe nga kush u formua, cilat raca e formuan( ndihmuam dhe ne allvanoset shume, pervec aziatikeve dhe mongoleve turq) ketu ne kete forum ke material sa te duash, te jesh grek s'duhet as gjaku as genet dhe as gjuha, mjafton fucking orthodox religion.
Ps. po dyshoj qe ti nuk njeh as historine konvencionale mire, te pakten duhet ta kishe ditur qe keltet nuk kane ndonje rol te madh ne qyteterimet ne gadishullin italik, etrusket jane culla di civilta atje.
hajd tung
E para nuk me pellcet as mua shume per teorine tende(meqe do te perdoresh kete gjuhe ta them troç) se nuk te pyeti njeri per ndonje gje. E dyta tento te pakten te heqesh kete ves te shpifur tipik shqiptare qe terheq çdo debat ne "kush jam un" e "kush je ti sepse me duket se te esht bere fiksim. Un çfare shkruaj nuk e shkruaj per te demonstruar ndonje gje, e shkruaj per te shprehur ate qe mendoj dhe perse e mendoj.e KAPISH TI tani, apo ste hyn akoma?? nuk me interesojne shume konsideratat e tua per "diturine time", dhe duke lexuar çfare shkruan duket qarte qe ske fare iden se si zhvillohet historia e lashtesise o e kombeve ne pergjithesi. po ngaqe te pakten un nje titul e kam per te hapur goje, nuk do me shesehs mend zotrote me teorira raciste-injorante nga kafenete e lagjes si ajo qe sapo shprehve me lart.
Fjala "mbase" apo "ndoshta" nuk pranohet si fakt shkencor lidhur bindjeve qe ti shpalos me zell per kete pjese te Italise se Jugut dhe pikerisht te keshtuquajtur "Magna Grecia", pasi si fjale (ndoshta dhe mbase) ngelen ne termin HIPOTEZE----qe keta popuj dhane emrat vendbanimeve ndoshta nga nje mal (qe aty nuk gjendet, pasi eshte zone kodrinore dhe fushore) si dhe nuk ka ne te keshtuquajtur greqishte te lashte ndonje fjale qe te mund te na vertetoje hipotezen tende qe te kete ndonje lum te rendesishem aty prane me kete hidronom, pra Akragas----duhet pasur kujdes edhe lidhur hipotezave, pasi shume here pergenjeshtrojne vetveten![/quote]
O Mallakastriot ne histori nuk ekziston asgje 100% e sigurt, edhe faktet e dokumentuara dyshohen. Qe jugu i Italise esht kolonizuar nga greke nuk esht bindje ime personale or burre, esht fakt i pamohushem, nuk ke çfare i ben kesaj te hidhesh perpjet. Ti nese do te ndryshosh historine, ose vet konceptin e kombit greke, qe ti nuk pranon, duhet te sjellesh TI prova, jo te tjeret. Ju me therrisni mua spekullus se i besoj historise “zyrtare”, po çfare keni per te thene per te mbeshtetur teorine tuaj?..vetem bindje absolute te mbeshtetura po ne spekullime personale. Doret vinin nga veriu i Greqise? Po keshtu dihet, supozohet qe te jene miksuar me elemente trake o ilir, supozohet qe te jene nje element trake o ilire i „helenizuar“, po supozime ka shume, supozimet ngelen supozime. Doret flisnin nje djalekt grek te mirefillte dhe i perkasin historise se Greqise, kjo po DIHET, dokumentohet. Tani çfare pret te them un, “jo ke te drejte Doret s’jane grek, i perkasin nje etnosi tjeter”? Po i bazuar ne çfare mund ta them? Ne deshire personale, ne urrejtje o smire per greket?? Dyshohet per Maqedonet te jene popull i helenizuar, po sepse ka burime historike dhe gjuhesore qe e mbeshtesin kete dyshim. Dhe prape ai ngelet i tille,ska asgje te sigurt.
Un ju ftoj te mos sulmoni mua sikur te jem un “perfaqesuesi i lig i akademive te politicizuara”, sepse un jap vetem mendimin tim modest, dhe kerkoj te bej debat duke e bazuar mbi llogjiken e shendoshe. Nuk kam bindje personale te asnji lloj.
Mallakastrioti wrote:Personalisht Hyllin e kam vizituar Siciline dhe Agrigento dhe kam njohuri lidhur stilit te ndertimit te Tempujve. Ka qene mrbeslenes Guida apo Ciceroni (ish Profesor i Historise se Lashte ne pension) kur i bera pyetjen: Cilet ishin Doret dhe nga kane prejardhjen?
Pergjigja me ngeli ne mendje, pasi eshte diçka qe ka nje te vertet te madhe:
"Doret fillimisht zbriten nga Epiri ne Greqi dhe me vone dynden keto zona, por Doret nuk jane greket e mitollogjise qe sot u mesojme neper shkolla nxenesve. Ishin nje rrace shtatmadhe dhe sigurisht lekurebardhe, kundrejt Joneve ezmere dhe te shkurter. Keto Tempuj te larte dhe gjigande jane bere prej njerez jo mesdhetare"---fjalet e Profesorit keto edhe pse lidhur pyetjes vendi origjinal i lindjes apo nga vinin Doret origjinalisht nuk mu pergjigj, pasi shkurtimisht me la te kuptoje qe ishin njerez te ardhur ne Ballkan fillimisht e me vone u zhvendosen edhe ne te keshtuquajtur "Magna Grecia".
Po te merremi me mitin, ku lind ngaterresa nuk na çon ne asnje vend te themi saktesisht cilet ishin apo ishte populli i lashte qe banonte Gadishullin Ilirik (nuk po e quaj ballkanik, pasi fjale turke dhe une kerkoj ti evitoj "turqizmat") dhe po te kerkojme faktet shkencore, "greket e lashte"-Hyllinet apo doret na dalin rrace jo Mesdhetare.
Ku qendron e verteta atehere sipas mendimit tend HylliArbenor?
Nuk e di çfare donte te shprehnte ekzaktesisht ai profesor me “keta tempuj duhet te ishin ndertuar nga njerez shtategjate jo mesdhetare”. Ionet i perkisnin te njejtes etni si tribut e tjera greke, e flisnin nje djalektet grek. Mbase mund te jene miksuar me popullata te tjera ne Azine e vogel, po prape, civilizmi qe shprehen atje nuk qe me i vogel o me i ndryshem se civilizmi i doreve te Magna Graecies. Pastaj çfare ka te bej gjatesia trupore me aftesine e ndertimit? keto per mua jane budalleqe Mallakastriot. Sa popuj ka antikiteti qe kane ndertuar gjera te mahnitshme, nga kinezet tek mayat te egjiptjanet, nuk besoj ata te kene qene gjigande basketbollist.
Pastaj edhe nese Doret te kishin ardhur nga Ballkani(qe per te arritur ne Greqi patjeter ne Ballkan duhet te kalosh), çfare i ben ata te jene me pak grek nga gjuha dhe kultura? Kete koncept duhet te ma sqarosh pak me thellesisht.
Jo, ata erdhën nga veriu malesor. Ka shume mundesi nga krahina e gegenise.
Hyllin, kemi te bejme me nje race te madhe qe ka pasur nje emer tjeter, as emrin greke, dhe as emrin Shqiptare. Greket e kane marre emrin nga latinet dhe latinet e kane marre nga perndia X qe beri nje djale ja vuri emrin Latin ne kishen kryesore te v-ati-kan
C'ka lidhet me lashtesine lidhet vetem me Shqiptaret e sotem si popull dhe gjuhe,fillimisht dhe pas tyre me Armenet si gjuhe dhe pjeserisht si popull,, dhe pas tyre me greqishten e vjeter vetem si gjuhe dhe jo si nocion komb, sepse kurre nuk ka ekzistur. Greqishtja e vjeter ka qene nje gjuhe libri, Hyllin.
Book language, ashtu si edhe gjuha latine.
Perpara Sumereve, Kretes ishte nji “Old Europe”, ose kultura Vinca. Kultura vinca eshte shume e neglizhuar. Eshte furur nga mendjet e ndriura europiane ne kullen e harreses.Kultura qe eshte origjina e vertete e civilizimeve te lashta.
Philip Coppens
There are lost civilisations, and then there are forgotten civilisations. From the 6th to the 3rd millennium BC, the so-called “Vinca culture” stretched for hundreds of miles along the river Danube, in what is now Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia, with traces all around the Balkans, parts of Central Europe and Asia Minor, and even Western Europe. Few, if any, have heard of this culture, though they have seen some of their artefacts. They are the infamous statues found in Sumer, where authors such as Zecharia Sitchin have labelled them as “extra-terrestrial”, seeing that the shapes of these beings can hardly be classified as typically human. So why was it that few have seen (or were aware of) their true origin?
The person largely responsible for the isolation of the Vinca culture was the great authority on late prehistoric Europe, Vere Gordon Childe (1892-1957). He was a synthesiser of various archaeological discoveries and tried to create an all-encompassing framework, creating such terms as "Neolithic Revolution" and "Urban Revolution". In his synthesis, he perceived the Vinca culture as an outlying cultural entity influenced by more “civilised” forces. His dogmatic stance and clout meant that the Vinca culture received only scant attention. Originally, interest in the signs found on pottery had created interest in some academic circles, but that now faded following Childe’s “papal bull”.
Interest was rekindled in the 1960s (following the death of Childe), largely due to a new discovery made in 1961 by Dr. N. Vlassa, while excavating the Transylvanian site of Tartaria, part of Vinca culture. Amongst various artefacts recovered were three clay tablets, which he had analysed with the then newly introduced radiocarbon dating methodology. The artefacts came back as ca. 4000 BC and were used by the new methodology’s detractors to argue that radio carbon-dating was obviously erroneous. How could it be “that” old?
Traditionally, the Sumerian site of Uruk had been dated to 3500-3200 BC. Vlassa’s discovery was initially (before the carbon dating results) further confirmation that the “Vinca Culture” had strong parallels with Sumer. Everyone agreed that the Sumerians had influenced Vinca Culture (and the site of Tartaria), which had therefore been assigned a date of 2900-2600 BC (by the traditional, comparative methodology, which relied on archaeologists’ logic, rather than hard scientific evidence). Sinclair Hood suggested that Sumerian prospectors had been drawn by the gold-bearing deposits in the Transylvanian region, resulting in these off-shoot cultures. But if the carbon dating results were correct, then Tartaria was 4000 BC, which meant that the Vinca Culture was older than Sumer, or Sumer was at least a millennium older than what archaeologists had so far assumed. Either way, archaeology would be in a complete state of disarray and either some or all archaeologists would be wrong. Voila, the reason as to why radio carbon dating was attacked, rather than merely revising erroneous timelines and opinions.
There is no debate about it: the artefacts from the Vinca culture and Sumer are very much alike. And it is just not some pottery and artefacts: they share a script that seems highly identical too. In fact, the little interest that had been shown in the Vinca culture before the 1960s all revolved around their script. Vlassa’s discovery only seemed to confirm this conclusion, as he too immediately stated that the writing had to be influenced by the Near East. Everyone, including Sinclair Hood and Adam Falkenstein, agreed that the two scripts were related and Hood also saw a link with Crete. Finally, the Hungarian scholar Janos Makkay stated that the “Mesopotamian origin is beyond doubt.” It seemed done and dusted.
But when the Vinca Culture suddenly predated Sumer, this thesis could no longer be maintained (as it would break the archaeological framework, largely put in place by Childe and his peers), and thus, today, the status is that both scripts developed independently. Of course, we should wonder whether this is just another attempt to save reputations and whether in the following decades, the stance will finally be reversed, which would mean that the Vinca Culture is actually at the origin of the Sumerian civilisation… a suggestion we
But what is the Vinca Culture? In 1908, the largest prehistoric and most comprehensively excavated Neolithic settlement in Europe was discovered in the village of Vinca, just 14 km downstream from the Serbian capital Belgrade, on the shores of the Danube. The discovery was made by a team led by Miloje M. Vasic, the first schooled archaeologist in Serbia.
Vinca was excavated between 1918 and 1934 and was revealed as a civilisation in its own right: a forgotten civilisation, which Marija Gimbutas would later call “Old Europe”. Indeed, as early as the 6th millennium BC, three millennia before Dynastic Egypt, the Vinca culture was already a genuine civilisation. Yes, it was a civilisation: a typical town consisted of houses with complex architectural layouts and several rooms, built of wood that was covered in mud. The houses sat along streets, thus making Vinca the first urban settlement in Europe, but equally being older than the cities of Mesopotamia and Egypt. And the town of Vinca itself was just one of several metropolises, with others at Divostin, Potporanj, Selevac, Plocnik and Predionica. Maria Gimbutas concluded that “in the 5th and early 4th millennia BC, just before its demise in east-central Europe, Old Europeans had towns with a considerable concentration of population, temples several stories high, a sacred script, spacious houses of four or five rooms, professional ceramicists, weavers, copper and gold metallurgists, and other artisans producing a range of sophisticated goods. A flourishing network of trade routes existed that circulated items such as obsidian, shells, marble, copper, and salt over hundreds of kilometres.” Everything about “Old Europe” is indeed older than anything else in Europe or the Near East. To return to their script. Gimbutas had a go at trying to translate it and called it the “language of the goddess”. She based her work on that of Shan Winn, who had completed the largest catalogue of Vinca signs to date. He narrowed the number of signs down to 210, stating that most of the signs were composed of straight lines and were rectilinear in shape. Only a minority had curved lines, which was perhaps due to the difficulty of curved carving on the clay surface. In a final synthesis, he concluded that all Vinca signs were found to be constructed out of five core signs: - a straight line; - two lines that intersect at the centre; - two lines that intersect at one end; - a dot; - a curved line
Winn however did not consider this script to be writing, as even the most complex examples were not “texts”; he thus labelled them “pre-writing”, though Gimbutas would later claim they were indeed “writing”. Still, everyone is in agreement that the culture did not have texts as that which was written was too short in length to be a story, or an account of a historical event. So what was it?
In Sumer, the development of writing has been pinned down as a result from economical factors that required “record keeping”. For the Vinca Culture, the origin of the signs is accepted as having been derived from religious rather than material concerns. In short, the longest groups of signs are thus considered to be a kind of magical formulae.
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Around 3200 BC, the culture of Old Europe migrated, to the Aegean Sea and to Crete. Today, they are considered to be the origin of the Minoan civilisation, though it is a dimension that few Minoan scholars have included in their writing, instead largely opting to see Crete as yet another “stand alone” civilisation. Gimbutas stated that: “the civilisation that flourished in Old Europe between 6500 and 3500 BC and in Crete until 1450 BC enjoyed a long period of uninterrupted peaceful living.” Motifs such as the snake, intertwined with the bird goddess motif, the bee and the butterfly, with the distinctive motif of the double axe, are found both in Old Europe and Crete. But the best evidence is in the writing of Old Europe and the Linear A script of Crete, which are to all intents and purposes identical.
But it is equally clear that contacts between Sumer and Old Europe existed at the time of the Ubaid culture, in Eridu – the site which inspired Sitchin so greatly in his formulation of the Annunaki theory and his identification of these statues as “Nephilim”. The Ubaid culture is ca. 4500 BC and though we should perhaps not go as far as concluding that Sumer was a child of Old Europe, the two cultures obviously knew each other. Indeed, in recent years, Old European artefacts were even discovered in Southeastern France, suggesting that the civilisation of Old Europe travelled not merely to the East, but also to the West. Perhaps we should even consider them to be at the origin of the megalithic civilisation? But no-one, it seems, has dared to topple that stone yet.
Tjeter burim:
he discovery of the Old European Script
In 1875, archaeological excavations led by Zsofia Torma at Tordos (now Turdas) in Transylvania unearthed a cache of objects inscribed in a previously unknown script. A similar cache was found during excavations conducted in 1908 in Vinca, a suburb of the Serbian city of Belgrade, some 120km from Tordos. Later, more such fragments were found in Banjica, another part of Belgrade. To date, more than a thousand fragments with inscriptions have been found on various archaeological sites throughout south-eastern Europe, notably in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, eastern Hungary, Moldova, southern Ukraine and other locations in the former Yugoslavia.
Most of the inscriptions are on pottery, with the remainder appearing on whorls (flat cylindrical annuli), figurines, and a small collection of other objects. Over 85% of the inscriptions consist of a single symbol. The symbols themselves consist of a variety of abstract and representative pictograms, including zoomorphic (animal-like) representations, combs or brush patterns and symbols such as swastikas, crosses and chevrons. A few objects include groups of symbols, arranged in no particularly obvious pattern, with the result that neither the order nor the direction of the signs in these groups is readily determinable. The usage of symbols varies significantly between objects: symbols that appear by themselves tend almost exclusively to appear on pots, while symbols that are grouped with other symbols tend to appear on whorls.
The importance of these findings lies in the fact that the oldest of them are dated around 4000 BC, around a thousand years before the proto-Sumerian pictographic script from Uruk (modern Iraq), which is usually considered as the oldest known script. Analyses of the symbols showed that they had little similarity with Near Eastern writing, leading to the view that they probably arose independently of the Sumerian civilization. There are some similarities between the symbols and other Neolithic symbologies found elsewhere, as far afield as Egypt, Crete and even China. However, Chinese scholars have suggested that such signs were produced by a convergent development of what might be called a precursor to writing which evolved independently in a number of societies.
Although a large number of symbols are known, not a single complete text written in this script is known to us. Possibly the only exception is a stone found near Sitovo in Bulgaria, the dating of which is disputed; regardless, the stone has only around 50 symbols. It is unknown which language used the script.
Old European Script - controversial issues
The Vinca symbols have not attracted as much attention as the arguably more glamorous Linear B of Crete and Easter Island's Rongo Rongo, both of which are still untranslated. However, it has still managed to stir some controversies of its own.
The main theorizer on the subject of the Old European Script (and the person who came up with the name for it) was Marija Gimbutas (1921-1994), renowned as a major 20th century archaeologist and a primary founder of modern Indo-European studies. She observed (correctly, as it turned out) that neolithic iconography was predominately female, a trend which is also visible in the inscribed figurines of the Vinca culture. She also proposed, very controversially, that the Indo-European culture originated in Pontus (the Black Sea coast of modern Turkey) rather than the more generally accepted Kurgan region of eastern Europe. Her theories attracted controversy - and even derision - among the archaeological profession, to a point where (as Wendy Griffin has observed) "her theories tend to be judged as either absolutely true or absolutely false." Discussions of her theories have thus tended to become very politicized among archaeologists. Partly for this reason, it is not universally accepted that the Vinca symbols do in fact constitute a writing system as opposed to some kind of decorations.
An altogether odder controversy concerns the theories of Dr. Radivoje Pešić from Belgrade. In his book "The Vinca Alphabet," he proposes that all of the Vinca signs exist in the Etruscan alphabet, and conversely, that all Etruscan letters are found among Vinca signs. This is, however, not taken seriously by the vast majority of Etruscan and classical academics, who attribute the origins of the Etruscan script to an early version of the Greek alphabet, as demonstrated by the high degree of similarity of the letters..
HylliArbenor wrote:
E para nuk me pellcet as mua shume per teorine tende(meqe do te perdoresh kete gjuhe ta them troç) se nuk te pyeti njeri per ndonje gje. E dyta tento te pakten te heqesh kete ves te shpifur tipik shqiptare qe terheq çdo debat ne "kush jam un" e "kush je ti sepse me duket se te esht bere fiksim. Un çfare shkruaj nuk e shkruaj per te demonstruar ndonje gje, e shkruaj per te shprehur ate qe mendoj dhe perse e mendoj.e KAPISH TI tani, apo ste hyn akoma?? nuk me interesojne shume konsideratat e tua per "diturine time", dhe duke lexuar çfare shkruan duket qarte qe ske fare iden se si zhvillohet historia e lashtesise o e kombeve ne pergjithesi. po ngaqe te pakten un nje titul e kam per te hapur goje, nuk do me shesehs mend zotrote me teorira raciste-injorante nga kafenete e lagjes si ajo qe sapo shprehve me lart.
Te dhjefsha ne titull o trap, nejse, dashuro veten o rrote, mua sme plas shume....askush s'po shet pordhe ketu per tituj pervec teje.
nga niveli i njohurive qe ti shfaq une dyshoj te kesh mbaruar dhe te mesmen hahahaha
e gjete rastin te fyesh perseri shqiptaret he?????? vesin e felliqur ti po e shfaq duke na treguar titujt qe nuk i ke...ti duhet te jesh jevg lol, ata mburren shume.
nejse VK, merrem dhe une me trapa.
boll harxhova kohe me copa mishi me dy sy
tung
"They are Nietzsche's over-men, these primitive Albanians — something between kings and tigers."
- Henry Noel Brailsford
, teori interesante Mallakastriot, po pse duet te jesh patjeter i gjate dhe bjond per te ngritur tempuj te medhenj? Popujt Quechua te amerikes se jugut ishin te shemtuar si majmun dhe ngriten priamida dhe formuluan teori matematikore maramendese. Pastaj greket e lashtesise patjeter qe kishin qene me trajta kaukazike, ashtu si latinet, po kultura e tyre universaliste dhe kontaktet e shpeshte me popujt nga me te ndryshmit sollen ne "erresimin" e trajtave te tyre etnike .Xoutos(dmth bjonde) ishte vellai i Doros, paraardhesi i Ioneve. Ne Iliaden dhe Odisen shume personazhe jane bjonde(xanthos o chrysokarenos,Akili,Menelao, Briseides,Elena, Penelopa etj), greket madje perdornin fjalen iris-ylber per te thene "pupila e syrit", dmth jo e zeze, me "ngjyra te ylberit". Statujat, qe ne lashtesi pikturoeshin shpesh kishin syte te kalter, si p.sh. Athena quhej edhe glaukopis (syte e qyqes, te shndritshem, dmth te kthjellet), Apollo esht phoibos-driteplot, Era leukolenos-me "krah te bardha",Afrodita dhe Demetra jane xanthà, etj. Ka madje teori "eretike" qe e lidhin renien e ketyre civilizimeve me shberjen etnike te ketyre popujve.
